Christian Forums

[Helen]

Lol fair enough Ariel!

Im always reminded in these discussions that Spurgeon preached from a Baptist puplit. Think the buildings get blamed for too much of our own failings sometimes.

Kids are in bed now, Im heading to the couch to put me feet up!

Helen
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?Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, And grace my fears relieved; How precious did that grace appear, The hour I first believed!

[Apostle]

Much to the dislike (I am sure) of many, there is a distinction between laity and leadership.

Jesus himself, although he had many disciples, apointed only 12 original apostles, and of those he had 3 who could be considered his "inner circle".

Eleven of the original 12, a thirteenth (appointed after the resurrection of Christ), and a 14th (namely Paul) were the founders of the church, with Christ Jesus being the chief cornerstone (of course).

So, I think in order to gain a truthful understanding, one should see the examples set by those mentioned above.

Therefore I challenge you to read the 4 gospel accounts carefully, and take notice that Jesus often took aside the "leaders", meeting, praying, and fellowshipping with them, separate from the rest of his followers.

And you may want to consider as well that the Apostles met, and detemined (separate from the presbytery) regulations concerning the gentile church.

Yes, leadership does have a distinction in comparison to laity. This is not to be a thing of pride, rather of responsibility to the call they have been entrusted with to guide the body of believers.

We are given warning as well that it will be the laity whom Satan will choose to deceive, causing them to usurp the authority of their leaders, because they wanted leaders who would tell them what they wanted to hear, not what they need to hear.

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. - 2Timothy 4:2-4

Have we forgotten that Jesus himself called his followers "sheep" ? Or that the very word "Pastor" carries the meaning of "Shepherd"?

Would a shepherd consult the sheep or other shepherds in matters of importance?

Let us be careful not to allow the worldly mentality that Satan would like to see overtake the church, become a part of the way we ourselves think.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; - 1Timothy 4:1

Please understand, I am not saying that our church leadership is totally without fault, and that we should blindly follow them.

There are many things questionable that exist among the Clergy. The use of the title "Reverend" is a good example.

However, we are to show those whom the Lord has appointed and called as our leaders, the respect of the office they are called into.

And the New Testament gives clear guidelines on how we are to go about presenting, and exposing, what we consider a fault in any leader. Which I believe has been overlooked.

We are not to make accusations, unless it is with 2 or 3 witnesses, and even then, we are to do it respectfully, not condemningly.

If you are looking for fault in anyone, or any particular group of people, I am certain it would be very easy to find others who would agree with you.

But, should we not rather take the whole word of God, in it's context, than to pull things out of it to support worldly thinking?
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And we know that all things work together
for good, to them that love God, to them
who are the called according to His purpose
- Romans 8:28

[Otto]

Can a brother lead & still be a brother, or must he then be a "leader"?
Can an office or it's holder outlive their own purpose?
Jesus choosing Apostles and "Reverends" appointing board members are entirely different from my unique perspective.
The examples in the gospels are instructional, but denominationalism isn't one of the examples, is it?
"... but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers"
Seminaries.
"having itching ears;" -Desirous of leaders we can confer our personal responsibilities upon, just like Isreal lusting fter a king.
Showing respect of office includes impeachment of abusive &/or negligent officeholders. Witness are multitudinous, as are offenders. The author of the letter made a personal approach, so forego the citicism re: 2 or 3 witnesses-in-private protocols.
And with respect to the truth, the presenting & exposing here suffers from nothing overlooked. The truth itself is condemning, so how much sugar coating is going to remove the "condemning manner"?
Worldly thinking is what results in denominations.
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This isn't the end of the world, but you can see it from here.