Christian Forums

[Otto]

The Point!!!?(I think),
is that seperation can be as, or more important, than physical seperation, given that we are indisputably IN this world, tho we should remain indisputably APART from it.
Remember that originaly, Christianity was a movement that thrived & survived in urban ghettos of the diaspora, not on agrarian tracts tenant-farmed by pagan peasants. That form of "Christendom"(in contrast to The Kingdom of God) came into existence when Constantine made it the state religion.
At that point, anyone wanting influence($) at court, saw the advantage of being in the same Church(temple) as the Emperor every Sunday morning.
Having all the pagan peasants that worked your family's land convert to the Emperor's religion was good politic, too.

Word up!

_________________
This isn't the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

[Helen]

Otto, that was some cool elequent oration there - but I feel you or I or maybe both of us are missing the point here.

Im not talking about being in the world and partaking of its spiritual sin, or even of its politics, Im talking about being in the World and serving it as a Christian, alongside of fallen man but spiritually set apart by God's grace.

This is what Daniel did in high office in a babylonian government. I see no reason to separate out from the World physically, when we are called to follow Christs footsteps and serve it - hence living out our God given calling in whatever way God has pre-determined for us. When Jesus said to give to Ceaser what belongs to him, I wonder if he knew that some of the taxes would go to buy lion food?

On the issue of corporate worship and nicolaitian fellowship - I accept that this is a huge problem for many so called churches but arent sure why you think Im trying to defend them.

I believe our prayer is continuous and unceasing, it comes from God that lives within us to God the Father, belonging wholly and totally to him. From our flesh no good thing can come. Prayer can be shared but not imposed by another or chanted by rote.

My own fellowship is neither institutional nor nicolaitian, and it teaches good doctrine too. Admiting it has problems is honesty rather than closing my eyes or becoming complacent. The problem with any gathering in Jesus name , is that as numbers grow if we are not truly Spirit led, we develop 'me' syndrome, and the whole thing starts to loose its God given order.

The issue of separating out from those who are called brothers but do not hear sound doctrine is what Jenn and I were disagreeing on.

Within our fellowship the vast majority hear sound doctrine, those who don't tend not to express their differences and so are largely unknown.

The friends I have made who dont share my doctrine are mostly people I have spoken to for years on the internet. Although I suspect God will never bring us to the same understanding of his Grace, I cannot regard them as being outside of Christ.

Looking back at the history of our faith, I see many saints who erred in their interpretation of various doctrines, and some including calvin who have taught their errors to others, fairly forcibly it has to be said. Would we then disfellowship them if they were alive today ?

One of the things I love about God is how he uses us as depraved individuals, still undead to our flesh and prone to error to fufil his higher purpose. It makes me marvel at the wonderous things his Spirit can acomplish within us.

Helen
_________________
?Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, And grace my fears relieved; How precious did that grace appear, The hour I first believed!

[Otto]

Well, sis, I have some disagreements & some agreements, but I'd like to hear from Jenn again, first.
Still, I have to strongly agree w/the "me factor" being epidemic, and I would like to add that that syndrome being a problem, is not dependant at all upon numbers(personal experience)!

Jenn's probably out doin' her paramedic bit to "save the world" one victim at a time, no doubt.

Sounds like the beach did y'all some good, sis.
Was it the Isle of Wight?
_________________
This isn't the end of the world, but you can see it from here.